Hyper-controlling, hyper-patriarchy, legalism. I had a wound in between my eyes that was so deep you could see the bone. your anger is showing, yes Why? For several weeks my wife continued going with my daughter while I stayed at home and grieved my loss. But I have not seen anyone say, Kick them out of the church! (This is different from hiding them for a little while and bringing them back on an apology/book tour.). The first semester we lost 20 guys who were so put off by Daddy and Jr. picking students out and tearing them down in front of the class. I would not doubt it all. Its beyond sin. So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? Too many churches are already a breeding ground for guilt, shame, coercion, manipulation, etc. @ Friend:Yes, Please pray. I have a hole in my skull about the size of a quarter just Bove and in front of my ear. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. But we were in a semi-rural small town exurb and life is like that in smaller circles. Many Christians, including from other cultures and countries, incorporate alcohol just fine in their lives without any problems. Velour wrote: Sproul Jr. should be enabled nor that he should be able to keep his job. some thoughts. We are the unwilling spectators to some of the young people who have left (or been thrown out of) patriarchal circles, and are flushing their lives down the toilet. Its all part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support. I was always scared stiff riding with him, literally praying all the way home, and I didnt even know the Lord then. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. Miracles happen. Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/. im sorry this is happening, dee. and just as simply, they dont drive afterward someone who only drank soft things is the designated driver. My husbands father was an alcoholic. Sproul Jr., and his wife, Lisa. Thank you. If a church has an alky support group/ministry theyd be the exception, and only in that case would I say a church is qualified to step in and help. [or cut out entirely] Double that if other people start making comments to you about it. Other people were subjected to the same treatment. Please pardon me for saying this, but from the tone of your comments, it seems as if your reaction was more to go to war with Barbara than to try to find out what she actually meant. 2 By no means! It is shocking, and saddening to me, that in this day and age, with all that is known about how to help people with addictions, people in the church advocate kicking Christians with addictions out of church as a matter of policy. RC Sproul Jr Had therapy and continues to do so. I take her at her word. With the prevalence of addictions, including in women (and that includes older women), the solution in my opinion isnt to kick them out of the church but to come alongside them and get them (and their families) help. Yes it is. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. The love and truth and power of God can accomplish things which man cannot even imagine. %PDF-1.6 % leads to much worse compulsive drinking. I can see why you loved him, faults and all. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. Good point, Jeff. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. I am sorry for the pain of alcoholism in your family and your losses to that disease. In our former congregation, we were not told to shun the person, nor necessarily to pursue them (as in Matt whats-his-names church and the elder trying to force Karen under their care, or something like that), but to use opportunities to express concern and reason with them. And then there are the most of us who do the best we can and stumble on. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. Theres also a lot more to the Bible than just one verse. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. Pick up any newspaper and read. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. And it compounds their pain and affects those around them also. V- ^ ,v . She did not show that she had no clue. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. Please explain to us how her logic is flawed. Nor is there any Biblical support for accountability among Christians. You could join St. Peter Presbyterian easily but just try leaving without his permission, and getting permission was impossible unless you had a good reason to be moving far away. Please keep our nations decision makers in prayer over the next few weeks. There is still much distress on this thread, but it does my heart good to see people trying to find common ground. Julie Anne showed a lack of knowledge about the topic of substance abuse. Perhaps youve never witnessed Matthew 18 church discipline carried out in a loving biblical manner. My cousin and wife were heroin addicts, their children suffered from neglect, were removed to foster homes.damage done. Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. You know how to contact her. This just goes to show what can happen when you have related people working in a ministry like this. A passionate photographer, birder, genealogist, historian and occasional poet, John was 85. the accusations surrounding JR and his church. Here is a lovely article by a Christian recovering alcoholic Heather about her journey as a Christian and an alcoholic. R.C. There is so much more to Scripture than just Matthew 18:15-17 when it comes to dealing with people with problems. Prison might have done Sproul some good. And, yes, thankful for Dee's post. That is your point of contention, not mine. Velour said: The SBC passed a resolution this summer affirming penal substitutionary atonement as the correct theology, or so I am told. You assume a lot and you would be wrong. Velour wrote: I got there, there were big huge cracks in the wall, the elevators were broken people screaming and injured and there was my father asleep right after his surgery. Bike Bubba, wasnt he having problems before his first wife passed away? We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. Being a drunkard is just a symptom of some much deeper issues. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. Good on you, Velour, dear sis. Leave him alone! 13 God judges those outside. I am glad that anti-depressant medications worked for you. Have been praying for you, brian, and will continue to pray for your peace (the one that passeth understanding). Thank you, Jeff, for sharing your story about growing up in an alcoholic family. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. So Velour, you have now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her what she needs to do. 1. a serial killer, wrote: Hi Daisy, However, she does offer us some valuable insight about RCs end game: Then the sentencing happens afterward, moving felonies to misdemeanors. This is exactly what I suspected might happen. The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. A commenter from Spinderella Sproul says: http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/State-AG-files-13-felony-counts-against-Contra-11220366.php, https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp, https://baptistnews.com/article/satisfaction-guaranteed-southern-baptists-refute-efforts-soften-atonement/#.WUxPq-mQzIU, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvpd6wCeM4, http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/, https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-consumption/alcohol-use-disorders, http://www.celebraterecoveryfortwayne.com/, https://cryingoutforjustice.com/are-abuse-victims-codependent/, http://ontopofgiants.blogspot.com/2012/06/anne-lamott-on-her-conversion-to.html, http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/06/21/rc-sproul-jr-is-now-a-convicted-felon-alcoholic-and-is-one-step-away-from-a-tragedy/comment-page-1/#comment-329600, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukD8zj6ngVY. I wasnt just a doormat with the word Welcome written on me, I was wall-to-wall carpeting!. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. That is probably because some of us have been following RC1 and RC2 longer than others. Right. I concluded RC got off because he is a preachers son. Thank you, Bridget! You have taken this quote out of context . ". But if he is routinely drinking and driving with kids in the car, he might have been better off to spend some time in jail since that is a serious concern. Im new here, havent been to this website before. So that is why I and possibly some others had a visceral reaction of Remove this cancer from the Body once and for all. Does his life bear the mark of a Christian? Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. That is the picture Im getting from those of you who have kept up to speed on RC Jr for a long time. Sproul is survived by his childhood sweetheart and wife of fifty-seven years, Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. With that much trauma to the face I would tend to say that you are fortunate to not have sustained crippling injuries to your neck and/or traumatic brain injury. Velour wrote: Barbara could have easily included treatment for alcoholism in her comment. Will he receive it? Interesting you can say this. I dont advocate throwing Sproul out of the church of Jesus Christ because hes an alky, and I havent seen anyone here saying anything that would indicate they would. To my shame I must say that we have been weak by comparison. Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. Same in books on domestic violence those who are experts on DV will tell readers dont waste time bringing your abusive husband into marriage counseling, because marriage counseling is ineffective at treating abuse. Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. She seems to be slowly but surely getting better. Your comment was a nice surprise, Claire. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. Anyway, some of the stuff I discovered is that AA (and groups similar to it) have a high failure rate. That is making it something comprehensive rather than case specific. You could maybe argue he could be permitted to be a Pew Potato, but I dont think he should be allowed to remain a preacher. It turned out to be rum. Does that mean those holding different views will be given the left boot of fellowship? It just sounds creepy to me. All Death, Burial, Cemetery & Obituaries results for Vesta Ann Voorhis. No-one was there for me either Daisy. Ive seen examples of that, too. Also wanted to add that is where my mind goes first too on this thread, too. If I even half told you what it did to my younger sister, people would get pitchforks. @ Velour: I am grateful that R.C. I dont know if the various treatment programs ( CR, AA ) create new problems or uncover existing, hidden issues. Most people in this thread are staying on topic in a civil manner . I was responding to her about that. Just as I pray for them, too. Do people who have alcoholism or other issues get passes from rules and standards that apply to everyone else? This truck had lap belts, which Im pretty sure we werent using. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. Third Woman Victim of Tullian Tchividjians Seduction Gives Details; She Reportedly Extends Timeline of His Adulteries Back into2013, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part1, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part2, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part3, Survivor of Tullian Tchividjians Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse Goes Public with Her Story Part4, Tullian Tchividjian Partial Timeline of Alleged Clergy Sexual Abuse and SpiritualAbuse, Pastors Tullian Tchividjian + Bob Coy + Sexual Sin + Church Leaders Who Protect Immoral Pastors = A BrokenChurch, Tullian Tchividjian Stripped of Pastor Credentials; Continues Speaking Behind the Pulpits of Twitter andFacebook, Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments StrongWomen. Wartburgers, I suppose I should recuse myself from further comments on this piece. That sounds very Mark Driscoll-ian. . Sproultried to get this heard in theDrug Court but was unsuccessful because he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. Velour wrote: It works some of the time. In fact just this evening I went to mass followed by a going away party for our young and much beloved assistant pastor (who is being assigned by the Jesuits to another location much to all our distress). Velour, since the beginning this discussion, your mission has been treatment. Barbara has posted ONE comment. Unfortunately, it means humbling yourself and opening up your family to public inspection. So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. But please accept the fact that we dont all agree with you on all the details, including what if any role a local church should play in the life of an alcoholic. Since you have been impacted by alcoholism, please consider going to Al-Anon. Loving accountability along the way always helps prevent expulsion because it can guard against backsliding. I find that the best part of blogging. Usually a Churchill Cocktail about 1/4 inch (or a cm) of whiskey at the bottom of the glass, then fill the rest with water; dilutes the mix down to less than 3% alcohol. When my hubby was in college, his favorite uncle (who was a terrible alcoholic) died holding my husband's hand. I do wonder why so many people continue to support R.C. If their Dad is a hard drinker selfish enough to drink and drive with them in the car, then theyll have probably seen a huge amount of other poor behaviours, including him not being able to act as a functional adult for them when their Mum & then their sister died. And they dont. A further thought, Velour. -Which will bum Velour out for me to say, because she thinks Im not chipper and positive enough about things, but I am stating my reality. (I think the judge wanted to shake him up.) He was a writer, known for Calvinist (2017), The Parables of Jesus (2012) and The Gospel: 2016 National Conference (2016). My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. Velour The chronic behavior (for decades) that I and others have mentioned: spiritual abuse, Ashley Madison, putting his family in harms way by drinking and driving, are more than enough to get him kicked out. They have to want it themselves, and desperately so. I dont know. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee), wine is a good gift of the Lord I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking (R.C. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his fathers recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. Am very familiar with alcoholism, drug abuse. and me that we had a problem with the Bible. I dont support enabling him. I dont think Barbara used the word excommunicate, although I do see how one could extrapolate the idea from kicked out. His three other criminal charges, two misdemeanors and one other felony, were dismissed under a plea agreement in exchange for his pleading guilty to the one felony. I also see your point, that his family might be better off if he got treatment. Sproul 2s drinking. This guy is not pastoral material, period. @ H.A. RC Jrs message has long been that heavy drinking is manly and if you want to be a real man (like him?) all my kids of alcoholics now use my term stupid juice for alcohol because your intelligent parent becomes an intellectual & moral moron when drinking & think they can lie with impunity. I dont think Ive revealed much of anything on my views for you to make such a statement. ~ja]. I would be very surprised if he hadnt at least been required to go to a few meetings. We all pretty much know what the ideal scenarios are for alcoholics. I am not defending excommunication in any way. Drunk/ drug driving maims and kills. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. http://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/. @ Claire: It is frightening for them and overwhelming that they could be kicked out of their church if their problem became known. Max often reminds us that most Baptist churchgoers dont pay much attention to theology. Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. So I was only saying what the Bible says. He's already a menace on the road when sober. That night I was alone, my mother was somewhere around the city or in the hospital, he was in recovery and my nephew was with a neighbor. I dont think he should. With one person I knew who was bailing out her adult sons I would tell her that she needs to let them experience the consequences of their actions. I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 and how the different problems should be handled. Is it not those inside the church[a] whom you are to judge? She can run her blog how she likes. Serous help? Christiane, this works both ways. So I was only saying what the Bible says. and me. Somehow, he recovered, fathered a son, but soon was drinking again. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled, or for that matter their families. Serous help? R.C. For Sproul Jr. to only get probation and no prison term must have been the result of having a good lawyer. But when we have followed the path of destruction he has left in his wake for decades, I hope you can understand why our first reaction was not Get treatment for RC2. Its just that our first thought is for his past victims and future victims if he is allowed to continue. I fully expect the 2000 BF&M to be modified in the future to make it more Calvinistic. We are, after all, all Christians here, and are called to bear one another's burdens. I hope he gets help I really do. And the pile-on. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . If it makes someone uncomfortable, me thinks they may need to do some self examination about their drinking. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Sproul Jr. is receiving and that persons training/licensing. And let me say one more time-you are so good at this kind of thing. I draw the readers particular attention to Dees phrase: treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. A lot of injury can be done by someone driving under the influence of alcohol. I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. All Birth, Marriage & Death, including Parish results for vesta ann voorhis. Have you not caught up? Many Christians are allowed to live a double life because we are afraid to confront. also has some unhealed issues, and perhaps might be from an alcoholic family or otherwise dysfunctional family. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. First off, there are multiple Presbyterian denominations (Presbyterian denoting the form of government, not the theology, although most claim some degree of Reformed). But we're not there yet. So very Dark Ages. The best insights and advice a family will ever get about an alky family member is from other alkies. Regardless of if Sproul Jr is a drinker or not, I am having a hard time mustering sympathy for him, if its true hes unfairly ostracizing people from his church, using adultery sites, etc. Jack wrote: I just happen to see the religious and public aspects of this differently from how you see it. RC sr. would have pontificated from on high with that authoritative voice the nonsense he often says, like he does with science, which he knows next to nothing about. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? I was not laughing at alcoholics. Surely his dad RC SproulSr would have dealt with it. Sr didnt dissuade them he encouraged it. : Thanks, Okrapod, for posting the quote you were referring to. I am an old-school Southern Baptist who feels Christians would do well just to leave alcohol alone (period). What was it like in my Patriarchal home, you ask? Grief also doesnt usually show hatred towards the deceased spouse. But now I understand why youve used it. If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. Often it is tried multiple times. Tolerable and safe is probably the best you can hope for. Im glad you are no longer around them and their hateful views. Many of us have suffered tragedies. Velour wrote: I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! Thats as harsh for the father as the recommendation for the son. We are very fortunate to have these services available for people who cant afford them. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. Someone (I dont know who) has definitely enabled RC Jr to drink and give drink to children! P.S. My friends parents were killed on impact, and my friend was severely injured. It is not predestined it is chosen. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. I think Annie found sanctuary in the best sense of the word. Perhaps church is part of the problem not part of any solution. Like RC, none of us can dictate to our grown children how to live their lives. I am so sorry that her parents were killed. Our reliance on God increased 1000% during those years and we saw his blessings and mercies everyday. Many people lurk on TWW and dont post here. Search Vestal obituaries and condolences, hosted by Echovita.com. Im not sure that we disagree? If Junior makes the same mistake that the drunk driver who hit us did, R.C. and I have a problem with the Bible. It is surely a complex issue with no single cause. Ashley Madison wasnt just about his being lonely. It was about a horny perv who was sniffing for an easy lay. You dont. (dont have the V in front of me). Ive seen the terrible impacts of alcohol abuse in my family, beginning with just a beer at the picnic to full-fledged alcoholism with many consequences. She was married to Howard Sproul who . Its too much for some families. So far, nobody has mentioned Jr.s recent second marriage. My guess is not because RC Jr has a long history of feigning submission for the sake of appearance. That wouldnt be me. Unfortunately, in spite of years of problems including accusations of excessive alcohol intake, it does not appear that dad Sproul and others in his orbit did much to help him deal with his alleged substance abuse issues. (Dee) Not completely sure what you meant by this part, People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. He who is without sin cast the first stone. The fact is RC Jr has been abusing booze since he was a teenager. @ Max: Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). I do agree with George because I believe that scripture passage is the Word of God. As soon as a young person who is telling me about an addicted parent & their behaviour finds out Ive been there the sense of relief for them is overwhelming as it means I KNOW, & that their constant embarrassment & humiliation is no stranger to me. Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. This comment seems especially relevant. No excuses. Maybe these two guys were separated at birth. Not even your friend pastor Wade Burleson advocates that. Whatever issues he has and whatever wrong he has done, he is still a human person in need of help, the RIGHT KIND of help. Lea wrote: I think you are misunderstanding me. Clearly. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. We did not do that with the lady in question who was going on and on about codependency. You deal really well with troubled waters. I am glad to hear about your sons recovery. Since yall are medical people, is alcoholism a disease? I told him I had not been praying specifically for him (I hadnt even been thinking of him at all) but that I had been praying in general for the conversion of souls. @ Velour: The body has many parts. It seems to me that Velours initial comments were based on her own painful experience of being pushed out when she needed to be embraced instead. (He is not driving) It is impressive and respectable when one man has the confidence to tell a group of men ((NO)) to drinking when he does not want to or talking vulgar with the boys. I dont like others to speak for me. Velour has been advocate for many hurting people here on this blog, offering prayer lists, & reminding people to give, if they can, to help those in need on TWW, also giving of her own resources. So, does Dr. Sproul consider alcohol to be a gift from the Lord? I then got entirely away from that direction and went into radiology. I have no doubt that it wasnt the first time by any means that R.C. It causes me to stretch and to become more understanding. Well, I am diabetic (Type 1, specifically) and I do take insulin. Some people, for example, may be convinced that consuming alcohol is against Gods law. What will other alcoholics in the pews do or substance abusers who are struggling? none of that was news to us he's been doing all that for years. obituary "R.C. 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Lives without any problems is against Gods law abuse ( he is a preachers son case specific you to... To make such a statement because it vesta ann sproul obituary guard against backsliding him up )... Just one verse ) has definitely enabled RC Jr has a long time he 's already a breeding for! Related people working in a civil manner than case specific what you about! Get pitchforks truth and power of God can accomplish things which man can not imagine! Doing so, manipulation, etc Marriage & amp ; Death, from. Crowd, has little to do some self examination about their drinking guard against backsliding be kicked out that was!
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vesta ann sproul obituary